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Happy editing, Sarah Manley @fandom (help forum | blog) 08:35, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Hey what are you doing here? :D MoffRebusMy Talk 09:59, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I like Wing Commander, I came across some details about Privateer 2 timeline that no one seems to discuss! Most people seem to assume that the 2790 date is based on the Confederation timeline. I don't think its supported in the history of the planets of the and the tri-system itself.Baggins (talk) 10:17, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
I don't know anything about Privateer. Have you checked the WCpedia? I would also recommend moving the Tri-System timeline to another page.MoffRebusMy Talk 12:01, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
THe WCPedia information is all wrong! It assumes that Confederation mentioned in Privateer II, is the same as the Terran Confderation, and assumes the 2790 date is a Confederation date. I'm going to agree might be easier to move the timelines, and rename them Terran Timeline, and Tri-System timeline.Baggins (talk) 12:04, September 1, 2013 (UTC)


Can you please rewrite the article Peterson? I tried to correct and expand it but I admit that I don't understand much of what it says so I can't work on it. BTW the Handbook gives his initial as G. Peterson. MoffRebusMy Talk 15:31, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Ya, Peterson has a few extra and extended scenes in the novel. If you can extend based on his movie apparances it would be helpful. I'll try to fill in the gaps.Baggins (talk) 15:36, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

On a side note if we decide to get into specifics of scene orders in the movie, it will be different than it appears in the novel. Many of the same events occur, but when they occur in order of each other is different. In some cases it is chronologically different, but other times it simply that the movie is non-linear, and showing 'parallel' or a flashbacks in relation to when the order appears in the book. The book is very 'linear', other than a few clear parallel events.

Knight and BossmanEdit

I'd prefer keeping the movie counterparts of those two characters in separate articles :S As they are "dead" by the time of the games, their fate is radically different, and also I take advantage of the different name they are given by the Handbook. MoffRebusMy Talk 18:55, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

The handbook is wrong, actually. The novels definitely take the official game route. As I mention Knight has a Charles Chen issue going on! Mr. Knight, nametag Knight, callsign Knight. Which definitely takes it a different route than the Handbook. I mean we could create three separate articles, one for the novel (that ties into the novels and games), one for the Handbook (Handbook even went with the game name Kien Chen), and one for the movie which does its own thing too, but that would just make it even more confusing.
I prefer using the in article text notes and behind the scenes to point things out.Baggins (talk) 19:04, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
Ok then I suggest divide a character's biography into sections, for example
  • Lead section
  • Biography
    • Background/Early life (contains information on parentage, studies etc and everything that occurred before official appearances. Might be a combination of sources, games, novels, handbook, with proper {{bginfo}} notes when there is a discontinuity)
    • Wing Commander Academy (the character's adventures during the cartoon series)
    • Film (what happens during the film, you can put Knight die there)
    • Vega Campaign and SM (brief description of character's presence in the WCI game. You can ressurrect Knight and Bossman there, withouth any mention of his death in the film)
    • WCII and so on...
  • Personality
  • BtS section
You'll notice I've more or less left out the 'resurrection' out of the Vega campaign sections in most of the articles already for both Bossman and Knight. At least they were in the edits. Just the 'comes on board' part that you initially had in the original article. It goes right into the vega information. On a side note, we'll have descrepencies between academy and the games as well... and later games. The first meeting of "Maniac" and Blair, and the rest of the crew for example is different in the original game, vs. later sources. Blair for example in WC1 comes on as a green pilot, and no one knows him, and he meets them for the first time, and they start giving their backstories after they introduce themselves!Baggins (talk) 19:24, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Priority of sourcesEdit

I am not very fond of combining inconsistent sources ιν the same narrative and resolve to tentative sentences such as "some sources say he was born here, but other sources say he was born there". It sounds like bad fanon to me. I suggest to make use of the {{bginfo}} template, such as:

LaFong was born in 2600 on Earth to Alice and Bob LaFong.

The Handbook however gives a different account. He was born on Luna to John and Jane LaFong in 2601.

When he grew up he became a pilot.

After this, we have to resolve another issue: which part goes to the primary narrative and which one is reduced to a bginfo note? As of now, as far as I have used bginfo, I do the following: game information comes first, and movie/handbook information comes second. Of course this can be confusing in the future when other sources will be used, such as the novels who fall "in-between". However there can be a rationale for the opposite: newest info comes first. So the movie universe can be treated as a retcon/reboot of what is told previously, obsoleting them (that is, unless the latest novels don't resolve them). I don't know, both sound valid.

Now I am gonna work on Paladin and I will keep to my previous scheme. After all as he is a game character, perhaps game info must have priority in his article. Therefore I will put in the narrative game references and I will put all handbook references in bginfo tags. Perhaps you should follow this scheme so that we can keep some uniformity, but I'd like to know if you have any objections. MoffRebusMy Talk 19:35, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

I think the biggest issue here is Chris Roberts at least according to Ben Lesnick, Loaf never really saw the movies as 'reboot' of the unvierse but an active part of it (even though he screwed with certain elements Knight and Paladin comes to mind). I don't know what the Handbook author was thinking, as the handbook does more to confuse and ignore, and give alternate interpretation than most other sources... Peter Telep definitely seemed to consider it active continuation of the series, as his references from the games, novels, etc make more direct sense for the most part.
The handbook and novels aren't even in line with each other, though the novels do reference some details from the Handbook. The novels instead chose to side on direction of the games, or game strategy guides, and manuals. On a related note the movie novelization is actually based more on the shooting draft of the movie, but some scenes were cut, and some scenes moved around for flow of the movie during editing. Including all the filmed bits of the Pilgrim traitor subplot.
Wing Commander Academy I don't really know what that is, and the intent, since almost everything about it, and it doesn't matter where you put it, ignores some other bit of Wing Commander lore. Be it the games, the novels, or the manuals, and official guides. If it follows its originally timeline it ignores the original game, and SM Novels when Thorn was captain. Note as far as I know Thorn is not mentioned in the games, and any reference to the Captain is just "captain" or "commander on the bridge", no names given (allowing for any possible combination during Vega Campaign period, be it Gerald, or Thorn). If Academy is set before WC1 it has issues with Maniac's history given in the Ultimate Guide, if it is set during or just before WC1 it has issues with a number of sources.
In addition there are discrepencies between the games themselves concerning 'age' of some characters and later games giving alternative ages for those characters. Or between games and the novels. For example I think Maverick has been given two different ages, what he appears in WC3/Kilrathi Saga manuals, and some other sources.

Baggins (talk) 10:35, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

Also I think material from Wing Commander Academy or game bibles or press kit that aren't said specifically on screen or in a published book should probably not be included in the main sections of the articles (as it includes unused prototype material that may not be 'valid').Baggins (talk) 11:09, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
Well if Roberts wanted to make the movie an active part of his continuity he should have been more careful. By what you say it seems that games/novels are the most consistent (with internal inconsistencies) continuity, and the movie/handbook is an oddball. So I will put contradicting movie/handbook as bginfo notes. As for Academy, I am not much concerned (for now) as it concerns only 3 or 4 main characters and doesn't tie in or contradicts with much else.
I don't find a reason not to include bibles information, especially if it supplements with some original information that doesn't contradict anything else like StarPeace or background info about the Confed. MoffRebusMy Talk 17:50, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if it was Robert's fault entirely, or if Hollywood pushed its grubby fingers into it. The director, for example. The movie by itself is closer to the novels, but with a few scenes switched here or there. The move really doesn't add anything that isn't said in the novel (other than a few extra lines the reference to "Dibbles" comes to mind). The novels are closer in general to previous novels, and the games.
The handbook and academy series are definitely the 'oddballs' from what I can see... In particular with some academy references in the novels, and the Ultimate Guide, and Kilrathi Saga manual (and perhaps a few ingame references). On the other hand Maniac treats the player character in WC1 as if they have never met, when you first encounter him in the game. Which pretty much every other source contradicts later on!Baggins (talk) 19:28, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
The novels vs. games, you get a few inconsistencies such as Tolwyn getting life in prison in WC4 novel, and death penalty for treason in the game, or vice versa. Maybe a few alternative birthdates, and places of birth here (which ironically would be similar to the issue in the handbook for Taggart, but generally for lesser characters), and some planetary name or organizational name differences.|
Freedom Flight and End Run novels were lose retellings of end of the Vega Campaign or the perhaps during the SMs (been a while since I read them) They put more importance into secondary characters than the 'player's character'. The player's character doesn't even appear. Freedom Flight focuses on St. John, IIRC set during the Goddard Campaign, and End Run has Bondervasky (sp?) takign on major role during the Firekkan Campaign. A Blair appears in Freedom Flight, but he's apparently not the same Blair that was created a few years later when WC3 was developed. It's a completely concidence that they share the same name. That Blair in Freedom Flight what few scenes appears in is a bit of a gambler, a unsuccessful womanizer, and a cad, not someone who plays by the rules (kind of Maniac's reflection). 
They were still debating between Carlt T. LaFong, Jason Armstrong and a few other names for the player character until they settled on Christopher Blair a few years later, and settled on his personality and backstory (in comparison to his appearances in WC1 and 2).
Baggins (talk) 19:32, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

Brimstone > Chengdu Edit

Hey, how have you been?

I saw in the Brimstone campaign you mentioned that the Claw jumped to Chengdu which is also mentioned in the Complete Guide. But the online wcpedia guide has a section Brimstne > Dakota. Where does this fit?

Also, why did you put that the objectives in Brimstone failed? The text doesn't say such thing. MoffRebusMy Talk 14:36, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I was reading what it said in the guide itself and it's order of events. How it places the order of the chapters. If I made any mistakes it would be only if I misread the guide, while skimming through it. If you don't have access to the guide I'll go check on it again.

It's a little more confusing as it also doesn't follow the ingame mission map.

Vega Campaign also lists the complete guide order as it's listed in the book (although some of them might be more accurately simultaneous to other missions).Baggins (talk)

About that mail... Edit

Thanks :) MoffRebusMy Talk 10:53, April 15, 2014 (UTC)


I remember in one of our past discussions that you proposed to accept Prankster LaFong as the protagonist of the 2 first games, and accept Blair as the protagonist of the media where his name is mentioned. If you still agree with it, I can begin a revision. MoffRebusMy Talk 17:21, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Yep, that's how I've been editing things, myself. Well largely first game being 'prankster' specifically. It becomes more blurry when it comes to WC2, as we have more or less that story fully confirmed from both of their points of view, with only slight differences. Where as with Blair, I use sources where it states him specifically, and details the exact events of what he was doing during the WC1 era (but avoid where the exact details haven't been specific). Again WC2, there are alot more sources that more or less summarize those events from Blair's POV, but with maybe a few details changed, so its a little bit more tricky. I've sort of avoided going too much in the WC2 side of things with LaFong because of the 'overlap' on his page, or when discussing the details on other pages (other than to say LaFong also claims to have had a similar situation as Blair, and even tried to have date with Deveraux himself).Baggins (talk) 20:33, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Hi Baggins!

Just a short Question:

At you provided a picture of Saranya Carr. What's the Source of this picture? And is there a higher resolution version available.

Also i would like to know if the woman on the picture is computer generated or a real actress. She looks a lot like a friend of mine and i woud like to show her this picture (with a better resolution at best).

Thank you in advance,

Lance  :) 07:48, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

It's from a poster seen in the Wing Commander Movie, said to be Saranya Carr in the novelization of the movie. The image is taken from the Blue Ray, so that's probably as hires as one can get.Baggins (talk) 09:59, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Reply Edit

Did you read my reply to you in my talk page? I'd like to hear a word from you. I understand you didn't like the way I splitted them, but at least let's discuss how it should be done, before re-merging everything.

Actually it was you, among other things, that made me consider splitting the articles here: I have participated in your Gabriel Knight wiki and worked with the game vs novel vs remake articles, which I admit found curious because the divergences are not that radical. So why do you insist on treating WC differently? If you think GK sources require splitting, this should also be the case with WC sources, as the divergences are much more chaotic.

To summarize, my idea is "split sources and indicate where they converge or crossover" instead of "include everything and add a whole bunch of discussions about how each event conflicts with others, and how they could fit together (if at all)". I hope you find some logic in my reasoning. CanIPlay (talk) 11:05, February 29, 2016 (UTC)

Hello, yes its important to understand that different series have different forms of canon. There is no one size fits all method of doing things.
King's Quest more or less now includes two different main alternate universes (original series, and the new games), with literature that ties directly into the orignal universe of the series but for the most part is supposed to represent the same universe. So that wiki includes all the stuff from the novels, and other "EU" into the main timelines. Whereas the new series makes enough changes to the story that it must be given its own main articles to give the series its proper respect and detail. Space Quest follows a similar pattern, but has not tossed in a reboot timeline yet, but instead plays loosely with the idea of time travel, and 'alternate universes' made by the affects of time travel to explain certain descrpencies between characters, places, etc from different versions of the game and media (again this is lead to a need to split certain things). Thus the wiki uses the 'alternate' universe/timeline format developed from one of the novels (Space Quest Companion) as its way of splitting up clearly 'alternate' versions of ships, places, characters, etc (all linking back to the fact that its 'caused by Roger Wilco's or Sludge Vohaul's influence on time, making reference to where it says that in the source material). However there really is only one Roger Wilco article, and it mentions he has 'lived' through all these alternate universes, and remembers aspects of all of them (as suggested in Companion).
Gabriel Knight has several different 'mediums' but haven't as far as I know directly been connected to each other. This has caused a need to split them, and given each version more detailed explanations where they deviate from each other. Police Quest offers one set of novelizations and a remake that have very little to do with their original source material, changing characters, etc. Enough differences and 'retellings' of the same story three or more times, that each version needs to be represented equally. The book is clear that its 'inspired' by the stories of the games, but not a continuation of the games (if anything its a 'fictionalized' novelization in-universe' made for dramatic effect, or purpose of movies about the events, but not the actual versions of the history, as it notes). This also has forced a need to split the material up, in that wiki (due to specific difference in 'canon').
Star Wars used to have one canon that included the EU, but now entire portions of the EU are no longer considered part of the canon, instead to allow for Disney to reboot the future of the franchise starting with Episode 7.  I don't know how Wookiepedia chose to do things, but we don't really follow their parttern, and each series has its own rules anyways as I've mentioned.
Star Trek has long considered the TV shows to be canon, and the expanded universe stuff to be non-canon. So Star Trek wikis are split into two.. Memory Alpha, and Memory Beta, and the two sources do not touch. With the exception of the Star Trek animated series which has been treated more as 'canon' in recent years.
Warcraft at one time all sources were considered canon. But due to repeated pestering by fans, the RPG was finally 'removed from canon' and the wikis decided to split that material from the articles altogether (into their own articles), or at the most leave them as a small footnote at the bottom of the articles.
Splinter Cell has its own conundrums due to the same stories being told in completely alternate methods depending on the system they were played on. The same can be said for Wolfenstein universe as well, which has essentially created several different 'alternate' timelines, and rebooted itself more than once.
Then we get to Wing Commander. Fans take different routes, some like to think each media form should be split up. Others like to combine them all. Generally speaking we take the word of the current developers bible, in which everything is 'canon' in some form (though some things may require future 'retcons', and are currently unexplained).  For more information how current Wing Commander 'canon' works see this article;*Soldier%20Gloss
And read Star*Soldier:
This latter source (the manual for the last released Wing Commander game, Wing Commander Arena) explains and includes material from all mediums (images, etc), includes new details expanding on or explaining certain things from those various mediums as well, but as the gloss explains they couldn't get around to explaining all the issues, and that perhaps in some cases they may have inadvertantly created new details that may need to be explained further in future material of the sort .
These notes are also particulary important if you want to understand the timelines, and how Wing Commander has printed them in nearly every game source material, but has been expanding on them with each new game release. There was going to be one published with Wing Commander 4 even, but missed the printing deadline, as explained in the Star*Soldier notes. But the material from Prophecy expanded from that timeline, and Star*Soldier expanded from both it and the movie timeline (adding some further explanations and details explaining details form the movies).

Baggins (talk) 11:55, February 29, 2016 (UTC)

Adoption Edit

Hi. I’ve given you admin and bureaucrat rights on this wikia as you requested. You now have the tools you need to clean up, customize and maintain the wikia.

Check out your Admin Dashboard, which can by found by clicking "Admin" on the bottom toolbar -- it has links to all your new tools. Please let me know if you have any questions, and good luck with your new (old) wikia! -- Wendy (talk@fandom 06:40, March 5, 2016 (UTC)

Further editing Edit

Hi again. Congratulations for becoming an admin. I am happy that you haven't deleted my /Academy and /Movie pages and I wish you won't in the future. I understand that you are absolute that all information should be treated as occurring in the same canon, but I would like to ask if it would be ok with your policy if I continued editing, improving and expanding the sub-pages. Even if I agreed with the unification of sources, I would find impossible to work with the existing pages they way all this information is combined. CanIPlay (talk) 13:51, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the subpages are yours. I may 'move' and categorize them into a more accessible location/subheadings later on. But they won't be deleted.Baggins (talk) 18:43, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
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